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	<title>Dreamflesh &#187; soul</title>
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	<link>http://dreamflesh.com</link>
	<description>Ecological crisis and archaeologies of consciousness</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:51:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Wade Davis on endangered cultures</title>
		<link>http://dreamflesh.com/blog/2012/04/wade-davis-on-endangered-cultures/</link>
		<comments>http://dreamflesh.com/blog/2012/04/wade-davis-on-endangered-cultures/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Gyrus</dc:creator>
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		<category><![CDATA[anthropology]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamflesh.com/?p=1094</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Via Tom Cheetham, an interesting talk from Wade Davis:]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Via <a href="http://archaicfragments.blogspot.co.uk/">Tom Cheetham</a>, an interesting talk from Wade Davis:</p>
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		<title>Talks by Patrick Harpur</title>
		<link>http://dreamflesh.com/blog/2009/10/talks-by-patrick-harpur/</link>
		<comments>http://dreamflesh.com/blog/2009/10/talks-by-patrick-harpur/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Gyrus</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[alchemy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[conferences]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[dreams]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[folklore]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[magic]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamflesh.com/?p=795</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Patrick Harpur, the essential guide to Hermeticism and alchemy, author of Daimonic Reality, Mercurius and The Philosopher&#8217;s Secret Fire, is breaking his customary seclusion with a series of courses next year to be held in the heart of West Dorset. Together with Jules Cashford (co-author of the excellent The Myth of the Goddess) and others, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="r"><img src="/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/secretfire.jpg" alt="secret fire" width="250" height="291" class="alignnone size-full wp-image-796" /></div>
<p>Patrick Harpur, the essential guide to Hermeticism and alchemy, author of <i>Daimonic Reality</i>, <a href="/library/patrick-harpur/mercurius-the-marriage-of-heaven-and-earth/"><i>Mercurius</i></a> and <a href="/library/patrick-harpur/the-philosophers-secret-fire-a-history-of-the-imagination/"><i>The Philosopher&#8217;s Secret Fire</i></a>, is breaking his customary seclusion with a series of courses next year to be held in the heart of West Dorset.</p>
<p>Together with Jules Cashford (co-author of the excellent <i>The Myth of the Goddess</i>) and others, Patrick will host talks, discussions, films and field trips exploring soul, magic, Forteana, folklore, mythology, dreams, and other byways of the imagination. Full details can be found at <a href="http://www.mythicimagination.info/">The Mythic Imagination website</a>.</p>
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		<title>Dale Pendell talk</title>
		<link>http://dreamflesh.com/blog/2009/07/dale-pendell-talk/</link>
		<comments>http://dreamflesh.com/blog/2009/07/dale-pendell-talk/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Gyrus</dc:creator>
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		<category><![CDATA[altered states]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamflesh.com/?p=726</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This just in&#8230; We&#8217;ve yet to confirm details, but hearing that psychopharmacological poet and occult anarchist Dale Pendell was visiting these isles, we had to pull together an evening for him to warp our minds with his words. It looks like the time and place will be the evening of 22nd July (a week on [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="img-right"><img src="/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/pendell-talk.jpg" alt="Dale Pendell" width="200" height="166" /></div>
<p>This just in&#8230; We&#8217;ve yet to confirm details, but hearing that psychopharmacological poet and occult anarchist <a href="http://dalependell.com/">Dale Pendell</a> was visiting these isles, we had to pull together an evening for him to warp our minds with his words. It looks like the time and place will be the evening of 22nd July (a week on Wednesday) at the October Gallery in London.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;ve not encountered Dale&#8217;s work before, check out <a href="/interviews/dale-pendell/">this interview</a>.</p>
<p>Stand by for further information and confirmation, but pencil the date in your diary with a big thick 9B!</p>
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		<title>Attending to Dreams</title>
		<link>http://dreamflesh.com/essays/attending-to-dreams/</link>
		<comments>http://dreamflesh.com/essays/attending-to-dreams/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 12:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Gyrus</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[death]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[dreams]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[psychology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[soul]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[therapy]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamflesh.com/?page_id=718</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Asklepius visits a dreamer. Epidauros, Greece. by Gyrus Written April 2008. Also published in Vortex magazine and on Reality Sandwich. The realm of dreams is perhaps the most ubiquitous, fertile, and alluring place that we look to for inspiration. Whether we&#8217;re craving new creative ideas or insight into ourselves, our night-time excursions to this mercurial [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="img-main"><img src="/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/asklepius2-300x220.jpg" alt="Asklepian dream temple" width="300" height="220" />
<p class="img-caption">Asklepius visits a dreamer. Epidauros, Greece.</p>
</div>
<p class="byline">by <a href="../../about/gyrus/" title="Info about Gyrus.">Gyrus</a></p>
<div class="intro">
<p>Written April 2008. Also published in <i>Vortex</i> magazine and on <a href="http://www.realitysandwich.com/attending_dreams">Reality Sandwich</a>.</p>
</div>
<p>The realm of dreams is perhaps the most ubiquitous, fertile, and alluring place that we look to for inspiration. Whether we&#8217;re craving new creative ideas or insight into ourselves, our night-time excursions to this mercurial land of multiple meanings, shifting landscapes and beguiling mysteries seem to dangle endless fresh possibilities before us. What if we were able to discover techniques that allowed us to easily reach out and grab these possibilities? What if tools were available that could haul this submerged inspiration out onto our all-too-dry land, ripe and ready to refresh our vision?</p>
<p>This kind of hope is the fuel for most of the prolific literature on &#8220;using&#8221; dreams, some of which is hugely important and powerful. In particular, lucid dreaming (a state in which you become aware that you are dreaming <em>while</em> you are dreaming) can exponentially increase the access you have to the dream state&#8217;s treasures.</p>
<p>However, just as individual dreams are never of simple significance, and only yield their true nature through multiple perspectives, our general interaction with dreams is hampered if we maintain a singular overall <em>attitude</em> towards them. Here I wish to dwell on an approach to dreams that&#8212;for obvious if not always good reasons&#8212;is rarely voiced. It has more to do with attending to dreams than using dreams. It is tricky (certainly not to be captured in a short essay like this), and vexes the results-hungry ego.</p>
<p>It is most forcefully expressed in <i>The Dream and the Underworld</i> by James Hillman, a brilliant and provocative psychologist whose work has endeavoured to revive the classical Greek sense of &#8220;soul&#8221; (<i>psyche</i>). Not the personal atom of spiritual being that our Christian heritage has left us with, but a liminal, polytheistic, metaphor-loving aspect of our being, which we dwell within as much as it dwells within us, and which resists all attempts to pin it down for service to pragmatism. Hillman calls soul &#8220;a perspective rather than a substance, a viewpoint toward things rather than a thing itself.&#8221; (<i>Re-Visioning Psychology</i>)</p>
<p>This perspective, Hillman argues, is expressed most accurately in dreams. Freud famously claimed that dreams are the &#8220;royal road to the unconscious&#8221;. Hillman shares Freud&#8217;s high estimation of dreams, but differs subtly and crucially in his approach to them. Freud may have talked of a road <em>to</em> the unconscious, but his avowed project was for traffic to move the other way&#8212;and to be disarmed of its irrational power <i>en route</i> by the process of <em>interpretation</em>. Freud wanted to move the contents of the unconscious into the realms of the rational ego, <em>on the ego&#8217;s own terms</em>. His landmark work <i>The Interpretation of Dreams</i> contains much respect for the dream, and is essential reading; but in the end his allegiance was to the rational project. &#8220;Where id was, there shall ego be.&#8221; Where exactly this process might stop isn&#8217;t made clear. However, a quick contemplation of handing over the control of bodily functions such as the heartbeat and cell repair to the ego should give you a good biological example of the limits of consciousness, which can trigger a sense of how vital unconscious processes might be for the psyche, too.</p>
<p>Hillman sees dreams less as a road to the unconscious than as <em>the unconscious itself</em>, &#8220;the psyche speaking to itself in its own language&#8221;. He resists the urge to interpret, to translate the psyche&#8217;s language into the ego&#8217;s language, with a characteristic lack of compromise:</p>
<blockquote><p>[T]his dayworld style of thinking&#8212;literal realities, natural comparisons, contrary opposites, processional steps&#8212;[...] must be set aside in order to pursue the dream into its home territory. There thinking moves in images, resemblances, correspondences. To go in this direction, we must sever the link with the dayworld, foregoing all ideas that originate there&#8212;translation, reclamation, compensation. We must go over the bridge and let it fall behind us, and if it will not fall, then let it burn.</p></blockquote>
<p>How to do this? Hillman&#8217;s key framework is psychotherapy. Although he is often harshly critical of the practice (one of his books is called <i>We&#8217;ve Had A Hundred Years Of Psychotherapy And The World&#8217;s Getting Worse</i>), it is his long-standing, embittered but loyal ally. He envisions it as an alchemical process, the classic 50-minute session acting as an enclosing container for the psyche, an alembic stretching through the weeks to hold and slowly refine the soul&#8217;s processes. Importantly, the finitude, that often annoying awareness that the clock&#8217;s ticking away, constellates <em>death</em>.</p>
<p>Hillman takes the dreamworld as the underworld&#8212;Hades. Not the literal underground into which the bodies of the dead slowly dissolve, the dark and earthy realm of fertile, composted death that the earth goddesses rule over; rather, Hades is the spectral realm of <em>metaphorical</em> death. Death as psychological depth. Not death as a literal biological event, but the death of the ego&#8217;s rational solid grasp of &#8220;hard facts&#8221;&#8212;the death of simple, singular vision.</p>
<p>It is not bodies that dissolve here, but mental constructs. Hillman takes interpretation as a colonial act of the dayworld ego, but analysis (from the Greek for &#8220;breaking up&#8221; or &#8220;loosening up&#8221;) he sees&#8212;despite our association of it with the rational intellect&#8212;as the natural movement of the psyche in Hades. In therapy, the constituent elements of the psyche, which are expediently joined together for effective action in the world of the reality principle, are separated out, revealing the multivalent (Hillman would say <em>polytheistic</em>) nature of the psyche. Dreams directly show us the manifold substructures that govern us; therapy, in teasing them apart, hopes to give each aspect of the psyche enough definition and confidence to make healthier pacts and accords with other aspects than were previously possible in the cramped and often hastily arranged space of the &#8220;personality&#8221;. The falsely unified persona of everyday life dies to the truth of the masque of death, the parade of numinous shadow figures that constitute the psyche&#8217;s depths.</p>
<p>Obviously here isn&#8217;t the place for outlining the actual techniques and craft of therapy. But how might this approach be applied in our lives, to serve our creativity, to enrich and inspire us? I&#8217;m returning to this question&#8212;&#8221;What to do?&#8221;&#8212;partly because the form of this type of essay gravitates in this direction, but also deliberately, to foreground this movement. And then, to undermine it. Specific practices are copiously documented in any number of dreamwork books or websites. But here, I&#8217;m trying to follow Hillman by initiating our approach to the dream with an attitude that, firstly, pays homage to the dream. Rather than be lead by the dayworld urge to get something practical, literal and utilitarian underway, perhaps we can try starting with the dreamworld, and cultivate a love for it that refuses expectations.</p>
<p>The most crucial element in approaching dreams is <em>attention</em>. We must attend to dreams closely; sustained attention brings sustenance. Keeping a dream journal is an essential discipline, but perhaps not a discipline to be &#8220;pushed&#8221;, like jogging. The muscular effort of exercise, as an attitude, is a great way to repel the images of the dreamworld; they appreciate less strained and direct effort. Indeed, an attitude of service rather than discipline is more appropriate. &#8220;Therapy&#8221; is derived from the Greek for &#8220;to wait on, attend&#8221;; the priests or attendants at the ancient Greek dream incubation temples, where the healing god Asklepius worked his wonders, were called <i>therapeutes</i>. This Greek root in turn stems from the root <i>dher</i>, which means &#8220;to support&#8221;. Psychotherapy, then, is to wait on, or attend to the soul. Both the therapist and the patient (who must be patient) are, in their dialogue, actually waiting for the impersonal soul to reveal itself through their interaction.</p>
<p>Paying attention to dreams can be fuelled by doing certain things, doing dreamwork. But the real trick is to slowly, with patience and persistence, cultivate a caring love for dreams, alert to their textures, movements and details <em>for their own sake</em>. I don&#8217;t see this as some kind of flat phenomenology, which cautiously sticks purely to the surface impressions given by dreams. The very nature of the impressions created by dreams, if examined closely enough, elicits a dynamic process of associative thought. As discussed previously, avoiding interpretation does not preclude analysis; dreams welcome a caring dissolution of any apparent coherence into multiple perspectives and trajectories. Indeed, as &#8220;a dream&#8221;, phenomenologically speaking, may just be our waking mind&#8217;s <em>memory</em> of a dream, perhaps this process of carefully mulling over the dream, not wrenching its secrets out on the rack of rationality but letting its structure unfold its ever-deeper recesses, is the basis for returning to &#8220;the dream itself&#8221;&#8212;whatever that may be.</p>
<p>We must bear in mind that when patients at Asklepian temples were cured, the visit that the god paid to them during their slumber wasn&#8217;t made in order to give them something to do, something in the waking world to obtain or pursue in order to be cured. <em>The dream itself was the cure</em>. What we do with the dream in waking life (if anything) should be a careful extension of the principles of the dream itself; any slip into the habits of translation or principally pragmatic exploitation could banish the mysterious power of our brush with this imaginal underworld. In attending to dreams, we need to cultivate the waking life traditions that share close affinity with dream logic&#8212;art, ritual, some psychotherapies. Only in these activities can we find containment that is sensitive and strong enough to accept the powers that dreams bestow.</p>
<p>Over many years, a prolonged devotion to these peculiar dips into the psyche&#8217;s native land does indeed transform your life, creating subtle and inexpressible currents of mental, emotional and spiritual nourishment. A certain stability&#8212;still mutable, but more coherent within the context of the dream&#8212;may arise in particular dream landscapes or characters that populate that world; the dream grows more assured and trusting in your presence. Patterns can span months, years or decades, and mature into a form of personal mythology; the dream is pleased with your patience, and rewards you with a more sophisticated knowledge of your depths. Terrifying encounters can open to reveal an indestructible concern for our well-being, and images or situations that seem intensely personal can give way to a much wider sense of the world beyond us.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>We sense that dreams mean well for us, back us up and urge us on, understand us more deeply than we understand ourselves, expand our sensuousness and spirit, continually make up new things to give us &#8230; It is like the love of an old man, the usual personal content of love voided by coming death, yet still intense, playful, and tenderly, carefully close.</p>
<p class="source">&#8212; James Hillman, <i>The Dream And The Underworld</i></p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>The Animated World</title>
		<link>http://dreamflesh.com/interviews/patrick-harpur/</link>
		<comments>http://dreamflesh.com/interviews/patrick-harpur/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Gyrus</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dreamflesh.com/?page_id=616</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Photo by Caroline Forbes An Interview with Patrick Harpur by Gyrus Like many others, I was switched on to Patrick Harpur&#8216;s writings in the &#8217;90s through reading the subtly mind-blowing survey of Forteana and folklore, Daimonic Reality. Avoiding jargon, writing with vivid immediacy, he manages to bring immensely slippery concepts from the hidden traditions of [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="img-main"><img src="/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/patrick-harpur.jpg" alt="Patrick Harpur" width="200" height="384" />
<p class="img-caption">Photo by Caroline Forbes</p>
</div>
<h1 class="sub">An Interview with Patrick Harpur</h1>
<p class="byline">by <a href="/about/gyrus/" title="Info about Gyrus.">Gyrus</a></p>
<div class="intro">
<p>Like many others, I was switched on to <a href="http://www.harpur.org/patrick.htm">Patrick Harpur</a>&#8216;s writings in the &#8217;90s through reading the subtly mind-blowing survey of Forteana and folklore, <i>Daimonic Reality</i>. Avoiding jargon, writing with vivid immediacy, he manages to bring immensely slippery concepts from the hidden traditions of Western religion&#8212;alchemy, Neoplatonism, Hermeticism&#8212;to bear on the wondrous oddities, such as UFOs and crop circles, of the modern world. It&#8217;s hard to recommend a better guide to the significance of the field.</p>
<p>His follow-up <i>The Philosopher&#8217;s Secret Fire: A History of the Imagination</i> is a bold, entertaining and illuminating survey that widens the focus of <i>Daimonic Reality</i> to take in more on shamanism, folklore and the anthropology of myth, but also mythical perspectives on Darwinism and modern cosmology, and excellent histories of Hermetic magic and Romanticism.</p>
<p>Both these non-fiction gems followed in the wake of the novel <i>Mercurius</i>, declared by <i>The Literary Review</i> to be &#8220;the most explicit account of the alchemical art ever published.&#8221; This gripping tale, which weaves philosophical and psychological reflections together with a brilliantly observed tale of alchemical experimentation, has just been reissued by The Squeeze Press (<a href="/library/patrick-harpur/mercurius-the-marriage-of-heaven-and-earth/">read my review here</a>).</p>
<p>This interview, originally slated for <a href="/journal/"><i>Dreamflesh Journal</i></a>, was conducted via email during 2007. Patrick is currently working on <i>A Complete Guide to the Soul</i>, to be published by Rider in 2009.</p>
</div>
<p class="int-question"><strong>Gyrus:</strong> The threefold division of &#8216;body, soul &#038; spirit&#8217;, as opposed to the dualistic mind/body model so common in our culture, seems central to your work. Could you sketch it briefly, and discuss how you feel &#8220;soul&#8221; has come to be distorted, misunderstood, or lost?</p>
<p><strong>Patrick:</strong> You&#8217;ve started with the hardest possible question! I&#8217;ve just jotted down 14 ways in which the word &#8216;soul&#8217; can be used, and there are many more. It&#8217;s impossible to define. But this flaw is also its strength. Like &#8216;God&#8217;, it&#8217;s a portmanteau word, &#8216;empty&#8217; in itself, yet taking on meaning in different contexts and in relation to other things.</p>
<p>Soul in relation to body likes to personify itself as Jung&#8217;s <i>anima</i>, for instance, or as the personal daimon whom Plato describes in his myth of the geezer called Er who returns from the dead at the end of <i>The Republic</i>.  It&#8217;s different from soul in relation to spirit, which is where I prefer to use the word as the Neoplatonists used it.  For them, soul was a whole realm intermediate between the spiritual or intelligible world (<i>nous</i>) and our own familiar sensory, material world.  It was <i>Anima Mundi</i>, the Soul of the World, wherein dwell the daimons who link us, as Socrates remarked, to the gods.</p>
<p>However, this all-pervading collective realm was paradoxical: it could also manifest individually, as individual souls&#8212;in other words, as us.  Since the chief faculty of soul is not reason but imagination, it likes to imagine itself in many different ways, cutting its cloth to suit the times.  Thus it re-imagines itself now as Imagination itself&#8212;a powerful autonomous realm beloved of the Romantics whence all the myths come&#8212;now as Jung&#8217;s collective unconscious.  It supplies the root metaphor for such modern re-inventions as the earth-spirit Gaia and Sheldrake&#8217;s morphogenetic field.</p>
<p>But, in another sense, soul and spirit can be thought of as  symbols of the two main perspectives through which we view the world&#8212;the two perspectives which create the world we see.  We experience them as a tension within ourselves between the spiritual longing for Oneness, unity, purity, light, transcendence etc. and the imaginative need to recognise Manyness, multiplicity, labyrinthine entanglement, darkness, immanence etc. It&#8217;s because, historically&#8212;ever since the Enlightenment&#8212;Western culture has emphasised the preeminence of &#8216;masculine&#8217; upward-striving Apollonian reason and science that I have tried to emphasise the neglected &#8216;soul&#8217; perspective which is dark, moon-struck, downward-spiralling and Hermetic or Dionysian&#8212;the Affirmative way of the artist, as the medieval mystics might have put it, instead of their own Negative way, which disdains and seeks to overcome the  images and myths which soul, willy-nilly, besieges us with and which we find so hard to free ourselves from in spiritual disciplines. The great ascents of the spirit into rareified mountain realms where the One dwells in blinding light can be read as a disastrous neglect, even repression, of the <i>Nekiya</i>&#8212;the underworld journey of the soul whose course is tortuous and mazy, moving towards darkness and death. That&#8217;s why, as far as any sort of gnosis goes, I prefer the soul&#8217;s way, death and resurrection, the painful initiatory dismembering of the shaman, to the rather unsexed and anodyne rebirth system of &#8216;spiritual&#8217; paths.</p>
<p>I prefer, as Jung says, wholeness to perfection.  That&#8217;s the short and incoherent answer to your question.</p>
<p class="int-question"><strong>Gyrus:</strong> I was quite surprised when I learned that James Hillman had travelled quite widely, in Asia and Africa&#8212;his work is so consciously rooted in, and confined to, the Western tradition. You&#8217;re steeped in the same tradition, from Greek antiquity, through the Neoplatonists, to the Romantics and depth psychology; but you also freely draw inferences from anthropology, from animist traditional cultures. Have your own experiences while travelling led to this influence?</p>
<p><strong>Patrick:</strong> Actually I&#8217;ve barely travelled at all&#8212;my daimon has always kept me tied to my desk, insisting that I travel metaphorically through the realm of imagination rather than literally&#8230;  So, no&#8212;my influences are all from books.  But I did hitch-hike round Africa with a mate in my gap year, when I was seventeen&#8212;when everyone else was travelling to India&#8212;and it did leave a deep impression on me.  I constantly wondered what was going on in the minds of the Biafran refugees, or the Cameroonian villagers or the Masai or the Bushmen or the Ethiopians and so on.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still trying to find the perfect work of anthropology, as it were&#8212;the book which gets inside the mind of wholly different culture from my own; which imaginatively empathises with its tribe rather than applying &#8216;scientific&#8217; principles.  I mean, how can you trust an anthropologist who can&#8217;t study witchcraft properly because he doesn&#8217;t believe in its possibility?  I want anthropology to be like the works of Carlos Casteneda or that essay of Benjamin Whorf&#8217;s on the language of the Navajo or Saul Bellow&#8217;s <i>Henderson the Rain King</i>.</p>
<p class="int-question"><strong>Gyrus:</strong> How does the perception of deep problems in the &#8220;comparative&#8221; approach to religion and myth, exemplified by J.G. Frazer and Mircea Eliade, impact your thinking? What remaining value do you see in wide cross-cultural surveys of things like folklore and shamanism, the alleged dangers and past mistakes of this approach notwithstanding?</p>
<p><strong>Patrick:</strong> That&#8217;s very pertinent and difficult to answer. I laugh at the idea of this approach being &#8216;dangerous&#8217;&#8212;it&#8217;s often what academics often call ideas which contradict their own. Who&#8217;s in danger? What&#8217;s more dangerous is the modern presupposition that all cultures are isolated and opaque to each other, and so studies are confined to details and minutiae, without any attempt to draw wider inferences about how different cultures can be compared, and whether or not they share a common humanity.</p>
<p>But if you believe that humanity is informed by a common imagination whose autonomous products, the myths, are, as Ted Hughes says, &#8216;as alike as the lines on the palm of the hand&#8217;, you see that no myth is truly alien to us, no matter how outlandish it appears at first sight.  And if no myth is alien, no culture is.  And if the contents of the myths seem strange, then Lévi-Strauss&#8217;s structural approach has been very useful in showing how the mythopoeic imagination obeys certain archetypal rules&#8212;rules of symmetry and inversion, for example&#8212;which illuminate myths by showing how one story, which looks wholly different from its neighbour, is in fact a transformed version of that neighbouring tale.  This is how I hit upon the notion that the tall tales of modern science concerning black holes and dark matter and the abyss of space etc. are in fact only literalised versions of those Gnostic myths which were suppressed by orthodox Christianity 1500-odd years ago.</p>
<p>So, while I sometimes despair of ever understanding a single thing about another culture, I also rejoice in how much of that culture is in fact available to me through our common imaginative substrate. Incidentally, it was my elaboration of what I call &#8216;daimonic reality&#8217;&#8212;a version of Jung&#8217;s &#8216;psychic reality&#8217;&#8212;which proved the most useful tool in understanding that relationship with the world which &#8216;tribal&#8217; peoples seem universally to have, and which we Westerners used to have: a reality which lies between the literal and metaphorical, which has one foot in the Otherworld, which obeys Blake&#8217;s &#8216;double vision&#8217; (something shared by all artists), which is participatory rather than objective, and so on.  I&#8217;d call myself an animist if that weren&#8217;t already a rather insulting term for one who has a clear vision of how everything that is, is ensouled and participates in that great World-Soul whose images constitute the flagstones of reality which underlie this poor phenomenal world of ours.  And this is how &#8216;tribal&#8217; people see the world: they&#8217;re natural Neoplatonists.</p>
<p>And of course Eliade et al. may be wrong in certain details; but the impulse is, surely, invigorating and engaging in a way that most mythography and anthropology isn&#8217;t&#8212;we suffer loss of meaning, even a loss of soul as benighted primitives say, when we lack an overarching world-view, a sense of a bigger picture from which no culture is excluded, don&#8217;t we?  (Frazer was, by the way, very different from Eliade&#8212;he literalised one &#8216;solar hero&#8217; myth and sought to explain most other myths by recourse to it.  In this he was more like a Darwinist than a comparative mythographer).</p>
<p>While I appreciate the agonising of post-colonial, post-imperial, post-modern critics, I just can&#8217;t interest myself in it. It&#8217;s a fault, I know. But my deepest impulses are religious, I think. I&#8217;m a Christian, for instance; but I don&#8217;t like other Christians much. That&#8217;s why I was so happy to find my own people among the Christian Neoplatonists (who are also pagan!) such as the alchemists, the Renaissance magi, the Romantic poets. A religion or religious perspective, at once Christian and pagan, such as they held, seems just what&#8217;s needed in our times of Christian and Scientistic fundamentalism. I&#8217;d like to propagandise it more; but unfortunately it can&#8217;t of its nature be subjected to the tools of propaganda because it&#8217;s subtle, humorous, tricky etc, and has to be just <em>seen</em>, like a joke or a dream, to be grasped. It&#8217;s the opposite of fundamentalism because it sees the root metaphors or myths behind every belief, including itself!</p>
<p class="int-question"><strong>Gyrus:</strong> Is there not a hint, at least, of the unifying &#8216;spiritual&#8217; urge in looking for a &#8220;common humanity&#8221;&#8212;with current academia, perhaps ironically, serving &#8216;soul&#8217; in its desire to retain distinctions, to emphasize particular characteristics of specific cultures, to champion multiplicity?</p>
<p><strong>Patrick:</strong> Yes. And yes.</p>
<p class="int-question"><strong>Gyrus:</strong> In your work you make very lucid, revealing comparisons between tribal initiatory structures and spontaneous modern experiences such as UFO abductions. Could you discuss these associations and what fascinates you about them?</p>
<p><strong>Patrick:</strong> Yeah, the Attack of the Little Grey Men.  Wasn&#8217;t that interesting folklore? With all the requisite memorates and fabulates, as those annoying folklorists with their quasi-scientific jargon call them&#8230;</p>
<p>Like anyone fascinated by UFOlore, I racked my brains to come up with some sort of reason why 80% of all Americans (it seemed at the time) were being snatched into circular uniformly-lit &#8216;spaceships&#8217; and subjected to bestial probings by those truly frightening little greys with their now-iconic all-black eyes (the cover of Whitley Streiber&#8217;s book [<i>Communion</i>] still gives me the willies).</p>
<p>One of the theories I liked was that they were the demonic spirits of the millions of aborted foetuses getting their revenge!  But it just seemed to me that what these abductions most resembled was the painful initiation of shamans by daimons, and, indeed, the imitative initiation of pubescent boys who are abducted at dead of night by masked elders posing as daimons, and subjected to scarring and circumcision etc. before being given secret knowledge.  I was also struck by a remark of Jung&#8217;s&#8212;that the unconscious shows to us the face that we show to it.  And I wondered if the &#8216;greys&#8217; were probing us in a heartless empirical way in some parody of the way we investigate Nature.</p>
<p>Anyway, there is no &#8216;explanation&#8217; for the widespread abduction epidemic&#8212;it is not a problem to be solved but rather a mystery to be entered&#8212;but I gave it my best shot vis-a-vis finding anthropological and Jungian parallels.  While I liked the late John Mack, the Harvard Professor who researched abductions, I didn&#8217;t like the way his latest book seemed to &#8216;work&#8217; with abductees, hypnotising them etc., until the &#8216;greys&#8217; became sort of relatively benign harbingers of, yes, you guessed it, the imminent ecological crisis&#8212;thus effectively repressing the idea that unless we find news ways of initiating ourselves into the Otherworld, we run the risk of being forcibly initiated, against our will, by daimons who have become apparently demonic by virture of our neglect of them.</p>
<p class="int-question"><strong>Gyrus:</strong> What is your fantasy for more conscious initiatory rituals in our society&#8212;or do you think society is now too unwieldy to manage like this, and true initiations will now continue to be emergent phenomena?</p>
<p><strong>Patrick:</strong>  I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if the need for initiation has become urgent.  It seems to be, after all, a universal requisite&#8212;there&#8217;s no society which doesn&#8217;t or which didn&#8217;t at one time attach the highest importance to initiation.  So, now that we&#8217;ve abandoned formal rites, we must expect to pay the price: a catastrophic severance of relations with the Otherworld, for example, and a lack of certainty about identity and adulthood among youth.</p>
<p>Luckily youth has its own means of self-initiation&#8212;drugs, piercings, raves, Mediterranean &#8216;holidays&#8217; etc.&#8212;but these can all of course be merely destructive if they are not performed in a sacred context, the ritual pain succeeded by revelations of the tribal secrets and myths.  I think children probably long for initiation if reality TV is any guide: whenever they&#8217;re subjected to real hardship in a meaningful context&#8212;<i>Brat Camp</i> etc.!&#8212;they respond gratefully.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t think what religion is doing, adopting secular liberal caring values where everything must be comfortable and all suffering is medicalised.  The whole point of religion is not to provide a cure for suffering but, as Simone Weil says, a supernatural use for it. Only suffering can provide the deep energy required for self-transformation.  (Luckily, once again, there&#8217;s often enough suffering to go round in the course of everyday life&#8212;illness, bereavment, unhappiness in love, whatever&#8212;but it&#8217;s usually treated when it could instead be pressed into the service of initiation.)</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m beginning to rant now.  It&#8217;s just that i&#8217;m furious at the deprivation of meaning, enchantment and transformation that young people suffer at the hands of our culture.</p>
<p class="int-question"><strong>Gyrus:</strong> What were your most significant initiations into your relationship to daimonic reality?</p>
<p><strong>Patrick:</strong> Well, you know, I was brought up believing in Spiritualism because my grandmother was a first-class medium and my mother a believer, who, wherever she lived, always managed to dig up a local medium / healer to talk to the dead or cure us kids of our childish malaises.</p>
<p>Meanwhile I was very aware of my Dad&#8217;s psychic powers, which he played down, even denied, having made of himself a hard-headed business man.  But he saw the fairies twice as a young man in his native Ireland&#8212;all the more surprising because he was Anglo-Irish, the son of a Church of Ireland rector, who was not supposed to see or believe in the Sidhe.</p>
<p>So I grew up with the supernatural and, instead of forgetting or rubbishing it all once I was exposed to education, I always tried to fit it in&#8212;ultimately this meant writing my own book.  I was lucky at Cambridge to be supervised by the great Shakespeare and Yeats scholar, Tom Henn, who was another Anglo-Irishman.  He, too, believed in the supernatural&#8212;he experienced Panic while fishing a stream in Galway, and heard the banshee keening on a train to Birmingham (his brother died at that moment)&#8212;and he showed me rare books from the Order of the Golden Dawn, and generally encouraged me to use my beliefs, as Yeats had, to make sense of the world.</p>
<p>However, my real initiation didn&#8217;t come until I immersed myself in alchemy for my book, <a href="/library/patrick-harpur/mercurius-the-marriage-of-heaven-and-earth/"><i>Mercurius; or, the Marriage of Heaven and Earth</i></a>.  I thought I could crack alchemy in three months, but, three years later, I lifted my half-crazed, tear-stained face up off the <i>n</i>th Latin manuscript in the British Library and realised I&#8217;d never &#8216;crack&#8217; it.  For every book about alchemy perforce becomes a book <em>of</em> alchemy, and I had felt the hand of Mercurius move my hand and what I wrote didn&#8217;t come from me&#8212;I felt the centre of my volition shift and I was no longer myself.  This, I suppose, is the central prerequisite of initiation: the awful uprooting as the Muse, or personal daimon, or self, ruthlessly seizes you and usurps the ego.  From then on, I had a new topsy-turvy and Hermetic perspective on things, out of which I wrote <i>Daimonic Reality</i> and <a href="/library/patrick-harpur/the-philosophers-secret-fire-a-history-of-the-imagination/"><i>The Philosophers&#8217; Secret Fire</i></a>.</p>
<p class="int-question"><strong>Gyrus:</strong> To apply Jung to his own lineage, what do you see as the Shadow side of the tradition of alchemy and Neoplatonism that you subscribe to? How do you relate to it?</p>
<p><strong>Patrick:</strong> Your question is a difficult one.  It may be an incoherent one.  I don&#8217;t know that I can answer it.</p>
<p>I want to say that alchemy and Hermetico-neoplatonism (if such a thing exists) is itself the turbulent mercurial underground stream which shadows the orderly canals of religion and reason, welling up in times of transition and crisis to form the flood of culture we have called the Renaissance or Romanticism. That&#8217;s to say, in itself, the &#8216;perennial philosophy&#8217; I favour includes its own shadow, like the Nigredo of the alchemists.  That&#8217;s part of its great attraction: it is concerned with wholeness and with realising the totality of the psyche; it holds the great dividing forces within psychic life&#8212;forces I&#8217;ve called &#8216;soul&#8217; and &#8216;spirit&#8217; (tho&#8217;, pace Nietszche, Apollonian and Dionysian would do)&#8212;holds them in tension so that nothing is repressed and no shadow forms.</p>
<p>I think Jung said that Christ redeemed mankind but left out Nature, which groaneth and travaileth. Nature is therefore Christianity&#8217;s shadow.  It was part of the alchemists&#8217; (unconscious) purpose to complete the work of redemption by raising up Nature.  But in a sense this is no more than poetry does&#8212;there&#8217;s something redemptive about all great poetry, isn&#8217;t there?  Poetry, like alchemy, doesn&#8217;t merely copy Nature (as Plato feared), but (as Plotinus says) completes the work of the Creator by returning to the original <i>archai</i> or archetypes which the Demiurge looked into in order to make the world.</p>
<p>The whole point of a daimonic philosophy (to put it another way) is that it doesn&#8217;t subscribe to the brilliant Apollonic lighting effects of monotheism and, later, rationalism which are themselves intrinsically shadow-forming&#8212;soul is always neglected and forced into the darkness underground. Rather it operates in lunatic twilight, between the light and the dark, where it is half light and half shadow, and so the problem of &#8216;the shadow&#8217; is not so much resolved as dissolved altogether&#8230;</p>
<p>Sorry, gone off the point a bit. Or have I?</p>
<p class="int-question"><strong>Gyrus:</strong>  I get the idea of this hidden tradition &#8220;containing its own shadow&#8221;. But surely there&#8217;s a shadow that&#8217;s missed by everything that can be called a &#8220;tradition&#8221;. With alchemy and Neoplatonism, I wonder if social concerns, engagement with communal politics and so on, the whole quotidian world of people and their mundane necessities&#8212;isn&#8217;t this neglected by most exponents of the tradition? Maybe Blake manages to transcend even that&#8230; But the modern occult / hermetic &#8220;scene&#8221; can be woefully insular. And I look at the arc of James Hillman&#8217;s work, and it seems his merging of the concepts of <i>Anima Mundi</i> with things like urban architecture and environmental concerns came quite late in his career, like the &#8220;real world&#8221; out there was the last bastion. Of course he had his Neoplatonic take on it&#8212;that we repress beauty, and our environment suffers from this&#8230;</p>
<p><strong>Patrick: </strong> Yes, I take your point about there always having to be a shadow of some sort&#8212;in the case of the Neoplatonic tradition, the quotidian world etc. I don&#8217;t know, but I always thought that that was something those guys took in their stride.  When you read Porphyry&#8217;s life of Plotinus, you don&#8217;t get the sense that he was in any way sealed off from the world or sitting, Hindu-like and silent, in a sacred grove, or living in an academic ivory tower etc.  Rather the reverse&#8212;like most mytics worth their salt, he seems to have been embedded in life and as pragmatic as St Teresa, who achieved union with the Godhead only to burst out of the convent and found many more, her letters full of practicality and worldly advice.</p>
<p>I dare say periods of retreat were necessary for the Hermetic lads, during stages of their advancement&#8212;as it is for us all.  But I think they attended to God&#8217;s immanence in the world, and hence to the world, just as much as to His transcendent aspect.  They had both perspectives, and held that contradiction in tension by means of Blakean &#8216;double vision&#8217;.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I&#8217;m only guessing.  But I&#8217;m probably, as so often, right.</p>
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